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Coalition of the Willing

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Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from Gideon
Review:
Interesting premise. I'll have to come back when I have read S8.
Review By [Gideon] • Date [10 Jun 10] • Rating [7 out of 10]
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from Jonathansicari
Review:
Given that my opinions on the Slayer are pretty easy to find on the forum and in my story reviews, I'm just going to make sure I understand some of the basic facts of the background before adding to the argument.

1) I believe I read some spoilers that indicated that Xander, Faith and Giles have all pretty much left the fold (indicating that the slayers are pretty much a bunch of women in their mid-20s at best, most with no real life experience outside of slaying running around unsupervised and making decisions that affect [they believe] the fate of the world).

2) This same group or at least one individual in the supervisory hierarchy thinks that stealing a (nuclear?) submarine and then selling its components on the black market is a good idea, up to destroying a passing passenger plane as part of the sales pitch (confirmation of goods?).

3) Somebody thinks this isn't a bad thing?

Jonathan
Comments from author:
1) Actually, Xander was there for most of it, with others coming in and out. But it's basically Buffy running things with Xander working under her in a more operational sense. Giles was there in the beginning, though he left after a while, and showed up later. She doesn't exactly listen to him that much though. Willow's also there too.

2) In the comics, Satsu (re)stole a submarine, based on the drawings it's a Type 209 diesel-electric submarine, of which Korea actually has nine (according to wikipedia). She admits it to Kennedy who gives no indication that this might have been a bad thing, despite Kennedy being there to judge Satsu. They later take it to Tibet where they sell it for weapons (grenade launchers, shoulder fire launchers, and the Chinese copy of the AK-47) and other technology, there's only a limited number of types of people that would likely do that type of trade. The slayers then shoot down an unidentified airplane that gives no indication that it's part of the force attacking them. It probably is as written in the comic, but they don't know that, they just see it on radar and since they are being attacked at the same time assume that it's part of that group. This is opposed to civilian aircraft that is authorized to fly in Tibet or even military craft that is authorized to fly in Tibet.

3) Actually, probably quite a few, not to mention the writers. I'll admit, the general idea of the storyline and even some of the characterization and dialogue is pretty good. However, the actual execution and implications are just...bad. Oh, and Buffy and company unleashed a bunch of giants that are now going around indiscriminately killing things. Accidentally though.

Thanks.
Review By [Jonathansicari] • Date [27 Nov 09] • Not Rated
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from JasonBarnett
Review:
""So I do think they want the supernatural conflict Buffy is leading to be the most important."

The world weeps if that's the case. Although, it probably is considering the collateral damage that Buffy is doing."

Look at it this way. It would have taken the entire nuclear arsenals of the US and USSR to destroy the world during the Cold War. But Joss and co. always made it seem like if the Hellmouth ever opened completely that was it.

Buffy's fight is basically biblical minus the religion.

Edit: Wow, really? The first period of it's existence the Hellmouth was guarded by the Chumash Indians. For the next majority of a century I guess people did just get lucky. Then Richard Wilkins moved in in 1899 and you had to get past him because he had plans a century later. This was the case until the 30's at some point. From there until 1997 you had to avoid Wilkins noticing you and get past the fact there was a centuries old vampire with a bunch of lackies living there stuck like a "cork in a bottle" to quote Giles when they explained why the Master was there in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

Edit: okay, there's no guarentee they "guarded" the Hellmouth, but season 4 showed us what one of their shamans could do and as the only humans around they would have been food to many demons. So they certainly had to fight to keep the bigger demons around.

And yes Angel has saved the world. But he started fighting because of Buffy.

She could certainly be replaced in saving the world. That's the nature of Slayers. So perhaps it's better to say that the Slayer's fight is biblical. But Buffy is apparently the most successful slayer ever.
Comments from author:
Which is actually pretty unlikely. Somehow Buffy just happens to be on the Hellmouth during its active world ending scenarios? What happened during the century or so between the Hellmouth being founded and when Buffy showed up then?

They all just decided not to do anything until a slayer was there?

Edit: "Wow, really? The first period of it's existence the Hellmouth was guarded by the Chumash Indians."

Technically it should be Sunnydale I suppose since the Hellmouth wouldn't be founded, but where in canon did it say that the Chumash actually guarded the Hellmouth? As opposed to just living in the area? This is a people, after all, that were peaceful enough that Giles didn't think that they'd get into a war.

"For the next majority of a century I guess people did just get lucky."

Yes, making Buffy so important to protecting the Hellmouth that a bunch of Indians and nobody is enough for it to just lay there. Yes, her fight is so important. All of the time.

"Then Richard Wilkins moved in in 1899 and you had to get past him because he had plans a century later. This was the case until the 30's at some point. From there until 1997 you had to avoid Wilkins noticing you and get past the fact there was a centuries old vampire with a bunch of lackies living there stuck like a "cork in a bottle" to quote Giles when they explained why the Master was there in Welcome to the Hellmouth."

So Buffy was actually only necessary for a short time in the history of the Hellmouth and Sunnydale. Makes it a hell of a lot less biblical. Sure, she saved the world at times, but then again, so did Angel. So her fight isn't any more superior. And has more than its fair share of collateral damage that she causes.

"okay, there's no guarentee they "guarded" the Hellmouth, but season 4 showed us what one of their shamans could do and as the only humans around they would have been food to many demons. So they certainly had to fight to keep the bigger demons around."

In other words, you lie and then backpedal when called on it. And season 4 shows what is effectively a ghost or a spirit can do. There's actually no evidence that the Chumash were deploying people with subsequent power as a defense. Canon has demonstrated that ghosts can do things that actual people can't. Of course, if they had the power, I'd imagine that war in 1824 would have turned out differently.

Oh, and where is your evidence that demons preying on humans was such a problem in that area as to need extreme amounts of magical power to deal with at the time of the Chumash, up to the demise mentioned in the episode. So basically, the 1824 Chumash War of Liberation.

"And yes Angel has saved the world. But he started fighting because of Buffy."

Irrelevant to the point that Buffy's actual fight is "biblical" and the most important. Stop moving the goalposts.

"She could certainly be replaced in saving the world. That's the nature of Slayers. So perhaps it's better to say that the Slayer's fight is biblical."

Yeah, in the antiquated sense of it. Nothing that Buffy herself could do could not be replicated, in a fashion, or done by others removed from slayers. Magic on the scale of Willow, sure yeah not really replaceable easily, but Buffy herself can't do that so it's a moot point.

"But Buffy is apparently the most successful slayer ever."

Considering she died inside of two years because she decided to walk into an obvious trap, probably not. There's her friends, but that's like saying that being friends with Michael Jordan makes you a successful pro-basketball player. She's lucky that she had people bailing her out, that doesn't make her particularly gifted.

Is there a point to this, or are you just going to keep lying?
Review By [JasonBarnett] • Date [9 Nov 09] • Not Rated
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from JasonBarnett
Review:
hey, blame stupid actions on the writers not the characters. Seriously Buffy and the Slayers go to China to become less magical? Where was it every suggested a Slayer could do that. Choosing not to use their strength. Helpless and Phases suggested that wasn't an option since Buffy wasn't even able to tell the difference in her strength when it was taken away, and in Phases the only way she didn't just ahnihlate Larry at first was to not even try to throw him

edit: I happen to think that the characters when they aren't dealing with an overreaching plot are the proper characterization. I mean how many times have they succeeded easily in thos eps, when in the major plot no matter how well they plan they can't win until the finale?

I mean think about this, in Buffy the US military was totally inept against demons. This despite an Angel flashback suggesting they'd done this sort of thing since WW2. Plus, of course that flashback basically showed demons would happily kill both sides in a human war. Then they show that Wolfram & Hart has it's hand in both sides of the US political parties through contracts AI reads, and of course W&H has offices in multiple countries.

So I do think they want the supernatural conflict Buffy is leading to be the most important. Also, I see in another review comment about the sub. If they say Koreans then we really don't know if it's North or South. Though maybe they did else where, I don't really remember. But South Korea is a US ally that has US troops in it constantly, while trying to make peace with North Korea, a country we really don't like. I doubt they'd be willing to help the Slayers against the wishes of the US government over one sub.
Comments from author:
Uh, the characters still do the actions. You can't simply blame stupidity on writers, since the characters are still the ones in the story. You create a false sense of character because you're basically justifying anything wrong they do with writer stupidity.

This is what the writers, and nominally Joss Whedon (though I don't know what level of creative control/input he has), want. They didn't suddenly stumble into it.

I'm not the one that creates canon. This is the Buffy that they want, someone so dismally unaware of anything larger than the direct fight she's in.

Thanks.

Edit: "I happen to think that the characters when they aren't dealing with an overreaching plot are the proper characterization. I mean how many times have they succeeded easily in thos eps, when in the major plot no matter how well they plan they can't win until the finale?"

Except that it's all canon, which means that the characters when dealing with an overreaching plot are the proper characterization too. Even if it paints them worse.

"I mean think about this, in Buffy the US military was totally inept against demons. This despite an Angel flashback suggesting they'd done this sort of thing since WW2. Plus, of course that flashback basically showed demons would happily kill both sides in a human war. Then they show that Wolfram & Hart has it's hand in both sides of the US political parties through contracts AI reads, and of course W&H has offices in multiple countries."

Technically, that was one fairly small operation. And I'd be more inclined to think that they filled it with incompetents as opposed to the whole situation being an indictment of US defense. After all, they did get through WWII and other events as happened in real life, more or less.

"So I do think they want the supernatural conflict Buffy is leading to be the most important."

The world weeps if that's the case. Although, it probably is considering the collateral damage that Buffy is doing.

"Also, I see in another review comment about the sub. If they say Koreans then we really don't know if it's North or South. Though maybe they did else where, I don't really remember. But South Korea is a US ally that has US troops in it constantly, while trying to make peace with North Korea, a country we really don't like. I doubt they'd be willing to help the Slayers against the wishes of the US government over one sub."

The South Korean flag is on the submarine as clearly shown on the cover of Issue #27. You really need to do some research if you're going to make a claim. This isn't some really old comic that has gone through hundreds of issues. There's only 30, and it's on the cover.

And South Korea might keep their options open with the recovery of a hundred million dollar submarine. It's an option, but Satsu wanted a toy, and the slayers wanted weapons, so that's the way it goes.
Review By [JasonBarnett] • Date [8 Nov 09] • Not Rated
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from Mcspender
Review:
The Scoobies messed up big time, thanks to their ignorance; Hell, I mean, they could've stolen a north Korean sub, and the CIA would have veeery been grateful to them, buut no, they had to "liberate" an allied nation of one of their subs, and sell everything to the wrong people.
Ya know, for a comic based in a realistic TV series, the season 8 comics really suck.
By the way, is the french SF soldier an slayer??.
I hope you can turn this into a full fic.
See ya!!.
Comments from author:
I would have been at least somewhat more willing to go with it, if somebody had brought up some of the problems with keeping it. Hell, use it for PR. Give it back to the South Korea, and ask if they could maybe let them stay in the country for a while if they need to. Or ask for support.

But no, when the higher-ups find out about it, this is the response:

Kennedy: You have a freakin' sub?!
Satsu: Bunch of vamps took it from the Koreans. I took it back.
Kennedy: You could have mentioned that in your report.
Satsu: Was gonna. After I got done playing with it.
Kennedy: Your eval's so getting a smiley face.

Their grasp of international politics, especially in regards to security, is "finders keepers, losers weepers." Truly Nobel award winning intellectualism.

I do like that they could all of sudden fly helicopters and operate a Korean submarine. Because those are easy skills to pick up.

Not everyone is special forces, but they all have been picked for the skills that they can offer. But, she's not a slayer.

I'm still considering how much effort I want to put into the concept. Thanks.
Review By [Mcspender] • Date [8 Nov 09] • Rating [10 out of 10]
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from Jonathansicari
Review:
I'm glad I didn't read those comics.

Very well written, I didn't see any grammar mistakes or common misspellings. I will be tracking this.
Comments from author:
It's weird, but there's still a good deal of stuff that I like in the comics. And I'm something of a sucker for stories that have superpowers operating in a world where the government and politics comes into play. Even if the comics don't do it very well.

Thanks.
Review By [Jonathansicari] • Date [8 Nov 09] • Rating [9 out of 10]
Review of chapter "Coalition of the Willing" from (Current Donor)Speakertocustomers
Review:
Interesting. I had vague ideas about doing a story dealing with the stupidities of the 'Retreat' arc but I gave up; there is just so much abysmal ignorance on display that it defied my ability even to parody and a serious story idea, in which Twilight's incursion into Chinese territory leads to a major international incident and gives the PRC the excuse to invade Taiwan, would have needed more time to do properly than I was prepared to spend.

This is looking good so far and you obviously have a vastly greater knowledge of international affairs and geo-politics than Joss. Although, to judge by Season 8, so has my cat.
Comments from author:
I think the writers of the comic basically decided that there are good guys and bad guys. They fight and whatever the good guys do, it's right. And there's no larger context, despite the fact that opening it up on a global scale means that there has to be.

The funny thing is that if the Chinese went in and killed all of the Slayers in Tibet, they'd actually be within their rights and, Tibetan sovereignty aside, the good guys in dealing with an armed invasion of their country.

In some ways, all Twilight needed to do was let the Chinese government know that there was a terrorist cell of Americans, though not with American backing, in Tibet. Let them do the work, and relations aren't going to be as strained as getting caught operating in Tibet. Assuming that they aren't operating with permission already.

Thanks.
Review By [(Current Donor)Speakertocustomers] • Date [8 Nov 09] • Not Rated
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